It’s a very sad essay about how academia destroys a person’s creativity and their dreams, leaving them cynical, bitter and suspicious of anything that reminds them of what they experienced while in grad school.
MFAs aren’t the only programs that drain the creative souls from people. PhDs are far worse.
Amen to that. Grad school feeds one sand. If one can digest sand, one is given gravel. If one can digest gravel, one is given cement. Then broken glass, wood chippings, curb sweepings, sausage factory offal, discarded plastic, found art, etc until one is broken. Then one is handed a doctorate sheepskin and chooses between being post-doctorally waterboarded or underpaid and underemployed among intellectual inferiors. And one pays tens of thousands of dollars for this.
Thanks for the close read, Vinny. I got some great comments on here about the Kim L. story, which I certainly appreciate, but not much about the postscript. If anything, this proves the point. As you say, there are no easy solutions!
Appreciate you reading and commenting. I think - like you said - a lot of people on Substack think they're Kim L. without realizing they're also the other people in the writing group, too. A group of Kim L.'s wouldn't work any better; we all need to make space for each other and get the most out of this community before Amazon buys this place and makes the whole thing a Kindle farm system.
So much I like about this. I've also really appreciated the back and forth on MFAs and gatekeeping. I think we do want and need gatekeeping. I love that writers who are significantly better read than I am are reviewing and promoting books they find worthy.
What we don't want is gatekeepers with poor or limited or bottom-line taste, which is the complaint we're hearing about agents/editors. LitStack gatekeepers are fundamentally different in that they don't feed a bigger machine the same way traditional gatekeepers do. The Metropolitan Review doesn't have to ask how marketable a book is before they review it, and the livelihoods of the editors aren't tied to the profitability of the work they cover.
I think your question about the role of the MFA (or something like it) and LitStack is really exciting. There is no lack of workshops and stacks like Forever Workshop are making concrete efforts to connect writers who want accountability, writing partners, etc. There are also notable authors, award winners passing wisdom to their own student subscribers (Junot Diaz, George Saunders) but it's all disconnected. It would be phenomenal if there was some kind of structured learning paired with workshopping in the LitStack community. Maybe several authors who work together to provide courses. Workshops are always going to be challenging because humans, but given the anti-snobbery vibe around here, the right group could do it.
Thanks, Daniela. I'm not a paid sub to Sanders but I enjoy his Office Hours. I don't know how much attention a sub would get from Diaz or Saunders or Palahniuk or how writing-focused or reading-focused each of their paid tiers are. It would be nice to at least have a breakdown across those big names and some of the others as well. Brandon Taylor also offers a lot of craft advice as well.
The problem is you can read all that theory until you're blue in the face (I have), but without deliberate practice and feedback you won't really get anywhere. And I think people are (rightfully!) scared to give/receive feedback especially in public. Every social media platform is bound to have communication breakdowns and hurt feelings. I think creating a culture where writers can assume positive intent would drive folks to be more constructively critical and improve the whole community as a result.
I'm sure those big name guys wouldn't get involved, they've got their thing going. I was thinking more along the lines of a writer like Naomi Kanakia or others involved with TMR. They could structure some groups by genre (or whatever) with required reading and rules for worshopping. Just thinking out loud. They're probably too busy, but I bet we'll see something along those lines pretty soon.
For now I feel the same about theory. I've consumed eight of the most well-known craft books in the last six months and was a paid subscriber to both Diaz and Saunders for a while. I read every novel review I come across. And I agree, at some point we need feedback from writers who are as serious as we are. By some crazy miracle Alex Sorondo edited one of my short stories a few weeks ago and just the way he cut it down taught me something. I think you're right, it can't be public The trick is to find writers suited to each other.
Seems to me there are two ways to go. Either find someone on Substack you think would be a good workshop leader and talk them into it. Or start one yourself. Maybe post an invitation, read samples, start meeting, adjust as you go.
To be clear, that was me name-dropping above. I'd be very interested in trying out a group like that.
It’s a very sad essay about how academia destroys a person’s creativity and their dreams, leaving them cynical, bitter and suspicious of anything that reminds them of what they experienced while in grad school.
MFAs aren’t the only programs that drain the creative souls from people. PhDs are far worse.
I’ll have to take your word for it. When I graduated, I had no desire to continue my “education.”
Amen to that. Grad school feeds one sand. If one can digest sand, one is given gravel. If one can digest gravel, one is given cement. Then broken glass, wood chippings, curb sweepings, sausage factory offal, discarded plastic, found art, etc until one is broken. Then one is handed a doctorate sheepskin and chooses between being post-doctorally waterboarded or underpaid and underemployed among intellectual inferiors. And one pays tens of thousands of dollars for this.
Sounds like some buffets I've been to...
Which buffets cost tens of thousands of dollars?
One at a wedding.
Never been to a wedding that has a buffet. If someone is spending tens of thousands of dollars on their wedding the meal really should be plated.
Hard agree. I was making a nonsensical joke and tried to work my way out of it. You've won this round, Autumn. *shaky fist*
Genuinely mean this. You’re coming out the gate hot with your review/essays and tapping into this. Well done, V.
Appreciate that, Kyle. Thank you. 🤙
Thanks for the close read, Vinny. I got some great comments on here about the Kim L. story, which I certainly appreciate, but not much about the postscript. If anything, this proves the point. As you say, there are no easy solutions!
Appreciate you reading and commenting. I think - like you said - a lot of people on Substack think they're Kim L. without realizing they're also the other people in the writing group, too. A group of Kim L.'s wouldn't work any better; we all need to make space for each other and get the most out of this community before Amazon buys this place and makes the whole thing a Kindle farm system.
So much I like about this. I've also really appreciated the back and forth on MFAs and gatekeeping. I think we do want and need gatekeeping. I love that writers who are significantly better read than I am are reviewing and promoting books they find worthy.
What we don't want is gatekeepers with poor or limited or bottom-line taste, which is the complaint we're hearing about agents/editors. LitStack gatekeepers are fundamentally different in that they don't feed a bigger machine the same way traditional gatekeepers do. The Metropolitan Review doesn't have to ask how marketable a book is before they review it, and the livelihoods of the editors aren't tied to the profitability of the work they cover.
I think your question about the role of the MFA (or something like it) and LitStack is really exciting. There is no lack of workshops and stacks like Forever Workshop are making concrete efforts to connect writers who want accountability, writing partners, etc. There are also notable authors, award winners passing wisdom to their own student subscribers (Junot Diaz, George Saunders) but it's all disconnected. It would be phenomenal if there was some kind of structured learning paired with workshopping in the LitStack community. Maybe several authors who work together to provide courses. Workshops are always going to be challenging because humans, but given the anti-snobbery vibe around here, the right group could do it.
I'd be so in.
Thanks, Daniela. I'm not a paid sub to Sanders but I enjoy his Office Hours. I don't know how much attention a sub would get from Diaz or Saunders or Palahniuk or how writing-focused or reading-focused each of their paid tiers are. It would be nice to at least have a breakdown across those big names and some of the others as well. Brandon Taylor also offers a lot of craft advice as well.
The problem is you can read all that theory until you're blue in the face (I have), but without deliberate practice and feedback you won't really get anywhere. And I think people are (rightfully!) scared to give/receive feedback especially in public. Every social media platform is bound to have communication breakdowns and hurt feelings. I think creating a culture where writers can assume positive intent would drive folks to be more constructively critical and improve the whole community as a result.
Thanks for reading!
I'm sure those big name guys wouldn't get involved, they've got their thing going. I was thinking more along the lines of a writer like Naomi Kanakia or others involved with TMR. They could structure some groups by genre (or whatever) with required reading and rules for worshopping. Just thinking out loud. They're probably too busy, but I bet we'll see something along those lines pretty soon.
For now I feel the same about theory. I've consumed eight of the most well-known craft books in the last six months and was a paid subscriber to both Diaz and Saunders for a while. I read every novel review I come across. And I agree, at some point we need feedback from writers who are as serious as we are. By some crazy miracle Alex Sorondo edited one of my short stories a few weeks ago and just the way he cut it down taught me something. I think you're right, it can't be public The trick is to find writers suited to each other.
Seems to me there are two ways to go. Either find someone on Substack you think would be a good workshop leader and talk them into it. Or start one yourself. Maybe post an invitation, read samples, start meeting, adjust as you go.
To be clear, that was me name-dropping above. I'd be very interested in trying out a group like that.